Curse

Andisa Kalorn · Jun 27, 2007, 04:13 PM // 16:13

I don't mind the whole "saving the world" kind of plot. I think the journey is more important than the end, anyway. Some of the quests in the Desolation and RoT were pretty fun for me.

That said, defeating a god? Maybe, if there was a way to make them mortal or something. But seriously, just walking up to a god and killing him with the same skills you use to kill unruly plants is a little stupid. Especially when you're just a group of poorly equipped mortals, most with stupid AI (hello henchies!). What's the point of having "gods" if mortals can just walk up and kill them? And find it easier than killing many mortal monsters...

It reminds me of a fantasy story I once read... it's apparently quite popular but it was the dumbest series I've ever read.

And as my characters did most of the work, I think they deserve to be made gods, not someone who helped cause the mess in the first place and did nothing to help.

Plague · Jun 27, 2007, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Guild Wars' stories are pretty woeful. Whomever is writing them is probably an engineer doing it on the side, in addition to modeling or coding or something. I can't see an actual college graduate with a degree in creative writing penning something as inane as the Nightfall plot.

Prophecies had some nice ideas behind it, but it was fairly cliche and trite. I liked the idea of the Charr invasion, but it wasn't touched upon any further than just pointing out that there's a war going on. Eye of the North will elaborate more on it, so that will at least make Prophecies seem more bearable in hindsight. I remember pushing my PvE characters through Prophecies before Factions came out, and finding myself literally hating the characters and the storyline.

Factions gets some points for trying to elaborate on Shiro's state of mind. Good stories typically aren't about events, they're about people. Empathizing with the characters is a vital component to having the viewer or reader wanting to see what happens next. Guild Wars as a whole rarely does this. I believe Shiro is the only character I have ever seen have any sort of internal conflict, and he's the only person in any part of the game with a truly relevant backstory. With everyone else you get their history, but that's all. (I don't care that Devona's father was an important man. Did she catch him having an affair? Was she a victim of incest? Otherwise, it's just worthless filler information, not a story.) The problem with Factions was that the story idea itself was poor. The presentation was acceptable, especially considering the limitations of cinematics in Guild Wars. I laugh every time I see Shiro perform the /moan emote as he magically slides up the stairs to kill the Emperor.

Nightfall was just awful. I couldn't think up a more hackneyed plot, myself. The characters are dull, their backgrounds are uninvolving beyond some slight (VERY slight) romantic tension that doesn't really go anywhere, and that I don't care about... and the overall story is nearly the same storyline I saw in my first text RPG. On a personal note, I hate Kormir. I was actually mad when she fulfilled her "destiny." What a bothersome, tiring woman.

Ultimately, what hurts Guild Wars the most are the cinematics. Visual presentation is very important in an RPG. Dialogue is the most important, but obviously Guild Wars is lacking in that department. (I suppose there's not enough game time to communicate the various conflicts and emotions that are part of most decent stories - some players want to get through the game, not experience virtual Gone With the Wind.) But the cinematics are just stock emotes strung together with often poorly-scripted movements and at times, woefully bad voiceover acting. Characters can't move in any way beyond animations players can perform, they can't make facial expressions, and they even break suspension of disbelief further by having weapons vanish when they perform animations. Guild Wars just has it bad when it comes to presentation. It has it real bad.

Ultimately, Guild Wars' presentation hurts the stories the most, which isn't really ANet's fault. On the other hand, the stories and characters are so bad that they don't make up for it. I personally cap that off by realizing that I only want to see the story once. When I move my other characters through the linear, funneled storyline just to get them to outposts (to unlock skills for PvP, or get near farming areas), it only makes me dislike the story even more because I'm being forced to "enjoy" it all over again.

All that said, I don't think many people, if any, ever bought Guild Wars for its story or PvE presentation. So ultimately, it doesn't really matter. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth as I try to get to the places in the game I actually enjoy, that's all.

Darksun · Jun 27, 2007, 06:00 PM // 18:00

I agree that the "bigger, badder" is getting old.. Although I can see why they did it, it would be nice to have a more local, less far-reaching story.

It's pretty hard to beat fighting a god, so the smaller narratives in GW2 sound cool.

Domino · Jun 27, 2007, 06:03 PM // 18:03

this was outlined (for the most part) in one of the GW2 interviews, I forget which one exactly, but the Dev's basically said they wanted a world with a story built around it, instead of a story with a world built around it (Guild Wars 1) - I think Guild Wars 2 will solve a lot of your complaints about Guild Wars, whether or not it will have a less cheesy story is another matter entirely.

If you think about it, Guild Wars 1 is built around this linear progression of an epic story. The way some outposts represent "events in time" more than physical places, further adds to this point. You can find this stepping-stone system in all 3 of the games, although it's especially noticeable in Prophecies. It's the reason why Guild Wars feels more like Diablo than a traditional MMORPG... there's a set "ending" for each chapter, after which most people start to go "Now what?" - yeah there are tons of things to do after you complete the main story, but your immersion is essentially killed.

I personally have been disappointed by the sub-bosses.... like the Hunger (that giant zombie demon dog from Nightfall) - The cutscenes hype this guy up to be billy-badass, chomping people's heads off and whatnot... then when it comes to actually fighting him, my group of 4 killed him in under a minute... if that.

I really didn't like how Guild wars doesn't really let you play the way you want to play. Most of my characters are anti-heroes, and yet through the linear progression of the story you are forced to save the kingdom and restore the balance, etc. I really don't want to be a hero, it's the "mundane" quests and adventures that really captivate me more than the main quests ever did.

Rocky Raccoon · Jun 27, 2007, 06:56 PM // 18:56

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Originally Posted by Winterclaw

What do you all think about games seemingly needing to introduce more and more outlandish scenerios? I really hope that in GW2, things are a little more simple. To be perfectly honest, I think game makers are trying to create exaggerated scenerios in part to one up each other and in part because they are overlooking the fact that you can have good games without needing to save the entire world. And it's begining to bore me.

Fantasy: Literature. an imaginative or fanciful work, esp. one dealing with supernatural or unnatural events or characters.

It's a fantasy game.

Mordakai · Jun 27, 2007, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Can we be the bad guy next time?? *smirks evily*

Why not?!? Seriously, this is supposed to be an RPG, right? There's a reason Assassins and Thiefs were so popular in D&D, and it's not because they were incredibly overpowered (well, maybe high level assassins were with there instant kill ability).

Anet has already established it can do different Instances based on where you are in the story. It would be pretty simple to have a "dark" and "light" storyline, with particular instances reflecting the path most of the players are on.

I hope GW2 gives us a chance to really change the world... for good or bad.

Mordakai · Jun 27, 2007, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Can we be the bad guy next time?? *smirks evily*

Why not?!? Seriously, this is supposed to be an RPG, right? There's a reason Assassins and Thiefs were so popular in D&D, and it's not because they were incredibly overpowered (well, maybe high level assassins were with their instant kill ability).

Anet has already established it can do different Instances based on where you are in the story. It would be pretty simple to have a "dark" and "light" storyline, with particular instances reflecting the path most of the players are on.

I hope GW2 gives us a chance to really change the world... for good or bad.

Vinraith · Jun 27, 2007, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Blame Tolkien. The conventions of fantasy RPG's are just the conventions of fantasy literature, and the vast bulk of fantasy literature is emulating the "epic quest" model that Tolkien synthesized from various pre-existing mythologies and legends.

Vagrant · Jun 27, 2007, 07:39 PM // 19:39

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I think that the point I'm trying to make is that it can work, but unlike what's been happening, it isn't always necessary or even good for the story. Nightfall could have worked fine if instead of the abadon plot, the sunspears and the vabbians beat Kourna back to gandara, and over the course of 3 or so missions captured the city leading to the final battle against a normalish human Varesh (she could have been level 30 or whatever) who had a unique skill bar and was protected by a boss of each class. That would have proved to be a memorable fight (depending on the bosses and veresh's skills) and been a game of a more reasonable scope. And you would have still been the hero that ended the civil war.

Agreed... Varesh was like a pill bug in the scope of Nightfall, which was a big shame. I would've much preferred ending the civil war. I would also love if the story had more morally gray spots in the story than all morals being black and white. Because honestly, a good story has ambiguity to it.

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We didn't save the world 3 times, we saved it once, from abaddon..
yeah, shiro and lich belong to him, and i really like the story, how the 3 parts connecting to each other,
example: a quest let you know that abaddon sent a demon that made shiro against the emperor..
it is really worth to do quest in nightfall...

While the lich was influenced by Abaddon to destroy Orr, the lich was acting on his own, seeking to fulfill the flameseeker prophecies. Abaddon merely used the lich as a tool to weaken the bars of his prison. Abaddon had no intentions for the lich after escaping from his prison. Same goes for Shiro.

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A good and compelling storyline - that is what is needed, and it is not achieved by rising the stakes even more.

I don't think there's any better way to say what you just said.

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Our characters all die a ridiculously normal death by natural aging between GW:EN and GW2.
Am I the only one to find this kind of redundant as closure for above-the-divine saviours of the world?

Yeah, talk about anti-climactic. At least the Vault Dweller in Fallout 1 was cast out for being exposed to the wastes too much (or if you had the bloody mess option, you ****ing owned the Vault overseer). But he established a village... spawning Fallout 2.

And in Fallout 2, your character founds a new brilliant city and rules as elder until his/her death.

... but epic heroes in GW who defeated gods, die of old age... *facepalm*

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Devona, what does the scouter say about his power level?

IT'S OVER 9000!!!!!

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Especially when you're just a group of poorly equipped mortals, most with stupid AI (hello henchies!). What's the point of having "gods" if mortals can just walk up and kill them?

And you would think Abaddon, the former god of knowledge and magic, would've realized that some mortals would just be waltzing into his lair and trying to kill him. And then planned some epic trap, where the bridge to Abaddon just falls through, making the heroes die from falling into an abyss. That would've been so freaking hilarious and suckish at the same time.

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The characters are dull, their backgrounds are uninvolving beyond some slight (VERY slight) romantic tension that doesn't really go anywhere, and that I don't care about...

Actually, Palawa Joko was one of the few characters I found interesting -- he had some personality.

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Fantasy: Literature. an imaginative or fanciful work, esp. one dealing with supernatural or unnatural events or characters.

Bolded the important part.

Bryant Again · Jun 27, 2007, 07:53 PM // 19:53

First off, the title for this thread was a little misleading. I thought it would be something about having to compete with the game business or something.

I guess the fact that I haven't really cared for the plot of the games after Factions is some concerning indication. I don't like seeing one-dimensional bad guys. Not to mention that both main bad guys in the past two games, Shiro and Varesh, were pretty much the same.

So yeah, deeper plotlines would be cooler.

And lol at Arcane. Are ya smokin' yet?

Plague · Jun 27, 2007, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vagrant

Actually, Palawa Joko was one of the few characters I found interesting -- he had some personality.

I'll give you that. I forgot about him as I wrote that. I can't say he was a deep or intriging character, but he was entertaining. It's hard to believe he ever posed a threat to anyone. He's more of a rascal than a warmongering immortal evil.

icymanipulator · Jun 27, 2007, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Kormir was the worst story element in all of Guildwars bar none.

Hey I do nothing and then the hunger eats my eyes! (you should have finished the job). Then hey we need to go to the Realm of Torment...but I am blind now so instead of even casting spells that do anything for the party I will just follow you around like an idiot. We need to kill Abaddon? Awesome too bad once again Kormir doesn't do a damn thing...oh wait...she becomes a god??? wtf ANET wtf...

Fast forward to Domain of Anguish getting released. Wah Kormir is such a crappy god she can't even keep her own domain in check. No wonder the stupid snakes are on the verge of extinction...you backed the wrong horse idiots our TOONS should have been deified.

and, Order of Whispers >>>>>>>>> Sunspears

Vagrant · Jun 27, 2007, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plague

I'll give you that. I forgot about him as I wrote that. I can't say he was a deep or intriging character, but he was entertaining. It's hard to believe he ever posed a threat to anyone. He's more of a rascal than a warmongering immortal evil.

The cutscene where he's trying to order his regained minions was the best part in the entire game. :P

"You miserable hunks of desiccated flesh! I leave you alone for a few hundred years and you let everything go to hell! Now that I'm back, things are going to be different."
"No, No, No! Mummified flesh on the left! Dried bones on the right! No, your other right! You worthless bits of animated anatomy!"

I mean, the guy's even smart enough to realize how powerful your group is, whereas every other villain underestimates you:
"I'm impressed by your confidence on the battlefield. Had you been on my side during the Battle of Jahai, perhaps history would tell a different tale."

free_fall · Jun 27, 2007, 09:17 PM // 21:17

You know, that's interesing: in all the times I've played through Factions, it never occurred to me to stop and consider *why* Shiro would want to become mortal again.

But the answer's pretty obvious.

As an Envoy/spirit, he can't get any nookie. And it *has* been a few hundred years ...

Retribution X · Jun 27, 2007, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vagrant

The cutscene where he's trying to order his regained minions was the best part in the entire game. :P

"You miserable hunks of desiccated flesh! I leave you alone for a few hundred years and you let everything go to hell! Now that I'm back, things are going to be different."
"No, No, No! Mummified flesh on the left! Dried bones on the right! No, your other right! You worthless bits of animated anatomy!"

That was the BEST cutscene in guildwars except for when rurik dies.

It sure was the funniest.

icymanipulator · Jun 27, 2007, 09:23 PM // 21:23

It was his character flaw. Arrogance. In the absence of Vizu, Archemorus, and Viktor his character assumes defeating your party would be easy. I found the Factions story to be very enjoyable and next to the Shiverpeaks (my favorite zone) the Canthan wilderness outside of the city on Shing Jea, Echovald, and the Jade Sea was all very nicely done.

Then the slop that was Nightfall...a necessary conclusion but my goodness an awful story.

Winterclaw · Jun 27, 2007, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kakumei

Congratulations, heroes, you have defeated the fallen god Abaddon and restored peace to the world.

Your next task is to bake cookies.

Yes, they need to keep upping the ante. This is what fantasy RPGs are all about.

So what's left for GW2? Conquer the world and overthrow the Tyrian pantheons? So what happens for the second GW2 chapter... invade a dozen worlds, wipe out the RoT, clear out the underworld, and conquer their pantheons?

Or maybe someone wipes out a god, then at the end of the first or second GW2 mission he gets wiped out by someone more powerful, who near the end of the game is killed by a lackey who's even more powerful then the second guy, and the heroes have to take out the lackey who's more powerful than the guy who was more powerful than the guy who could beat up a god. In GW2, the lackey's lackey makes processes repeat itself after another "new" god or three dies.

Or maybe there is a second level of gods and in GW2 after clearing out the first bunch, you have to tackle the gods that the other gods worship ad infinium. Cause you have infinate levels.

@Risky Ranger, I'm not argueing that there shouldn't be things like ghosts or goblins or dragons, I'm argueing that we don't need to be heroes of the cosmology or whatever it's called to make a good game.

ponk · Jun 27, 2007, 10:19 PM // 22:19

Its just up to how much time A-Net has to figure out the storyline. That's why prophecies has the best one imo. Factions and Nightfall were rushjobs if you look at the storyline. Who cares who you kill in the end if the story leading up to it is good. I want to kill He-Man

Phantom Gun · Jun 27, 2007, 10:24 PM // 22:24

I don't think the stories are that bad. I like Nightfalls whole war theme before you reach the vortex. I had fun in a lot of those missions before then. I also found some to be humourous. I havn't beaten NF yet but i'm pretty close so I can't comment on what happens after that. I do think they could of spent more time on character development though. Regardless so far it's my favorite campaign.

Factions, well, I thought the story was average. The best part about that story was Shiro. At least you got to know your enemy and the reasons why he turned out the way he did. Other then that I didn't enjoy the other aspects of the story that much. I thought the Kurzick and Luxon thing was kind of cool though.

Prophecies for me had a sense of adventure, but the story seemed to jump from one thing to the next more then I would of liked. As a side note though I very much enjoyed watching Rurick get the axe. I never liked that guy.

Anyway really it's a sense of personal taste. As far as the stories go yeah there is room for improvement, but I think they are doing a decent job. Most of the mmos i've played only have like a back story and the rest is grind quests. Talk about blah.

Turaan Tolgerias · Jun 27, 2007, 10:45 PM // 22:45

what annoyed me at the end of factions was when the envoy said "let us worry about shiro". So what did they do? Let shiro have a party with the lich and abaddon in the realm of torment.